The Crucifixion: Not a Message of Sacrifice Part 2

Excerpt from The Disappearance of the Universe, Pursah talking about the days of Jesus' time on earth, keeping in mind that Pursah is speaking with the benefit of being the disciple of Jesus, Thomas, in that lifetime.

Pursah: Like most people today, instead of really listening back then to what J was teaching, most of us saw and heard what we wanted to see and hear so we could use him to validate our own experience - which was the experience of being an individual in a body.  Thus, we had to make him a separate and very special individual  body, which is how we really saw ourselves, and how you still see yourself.

Pursah goes on talking about the development of a new religion...

 Before you knew it, you had people relating to J as the body of all bodies.  They already believed God had created a flawed world with imperfect people like Adam and Eve who were capable of making mistakes.  They completely overlooked the logic that for God to create the imperfect must either mean that He Himself was imperfect or He deliberately made  those who were so they could screw up, be punished by Him and suffer here on psycho planet.  Then, according to this developing new religion , God takes – incredibly – His big-time special only begotten Son, who would apparently be more Holy than the rest of the scum of the earth, and sends him as a blood sacrifice to suffer and die on a cross as a way of vicariously atoning for people’s sins.

Except now there’s another  big problem, because even according to Christianity’s own doctrines, this does not really atone for anybody else’s sins.  If it atoned for people’s sins, then that would be the end of it.  Problem solved.  But no!  It now becomes necessary for everyone to blindly believe  in all of the details conveniently set forth exclusively by the Christian religion, or else they will still  burn in hell, even if they happened to be born – presumably by God’s will – in a place, time or culture that isn’t even familiar with this particular religion!

Gary: It does all sound a little bizarre when you pit that way.  The whole thought system isn’t exactly complimentary to the nature of God.

Arten: That’s because it’s all symbolic of a fearful image of God rather than a loving one.  We don’t mean to be disrespectful, but we have to make certain controversial statements because there’s not exactly an oversupply of people in your society who are willing to point these things out.  It is  true that at the time J was the most advanced spiritual person to ever appear on the earth.  But everyone else, including you, will eventually attain the same level of accomplishment as him.  There is no exception to this.  Thus, J is not ultimately different from anyone else, and his attitude was that no one  will be left out of Heaven, because there is really only one  of us – not all these separate bodies as you are presently dreaming.

Mikey's Note: I would add to what Arten said that everyone will attain the same level of achievement, however, many won't experience that in their current lifetimes.  In fact, most will need many more lifetimes to get there, others will be ready in their current incarnations, or within the next couple. They are the "chosen ones" not because the "chosen ones'" are special, but because they are ready to start letting go of all psychological attachments to every person, place, thing, ideas, outcomes and circumstances.  As Pursah states in Disappearance, "J chooses everyone, all the time.  But how many are ready to listen?"  As a percentage of the planet's population, very few indeed. I know there was once a time when I  wasn't ready, thankfully, I am now because I know from experience that nothing  in the world can offer me permanent gratification.

To this sum puppy up with a funny from Disappearance
Gary: So I keep reincarnating because of this unconscious guilt and fear that’s in my mind.  You’re saying if the guilt was healed, and I didn’t have this hidden fear, then I wouldn’t have any need for a body, the world, or even the universe?
Arten: Excellent.  I knew you weren’t a dumb bastard.  I tried to tell J, but he wouldn’t listen.

Giddy up!

 Link to Part 1


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What is True Forgiveness? (Article Version)
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The Crucifixion: Not a Message of Sacrifice Part 1

Excerpts from Gary Renard's The Disappearance of the Universe, as well as A Course in Miracles, on what the Crucifixion was really all about.

First, it should be stated that Jesus is not special, and never claimed to be.  You can find that not only in the Course, but even in the Bible when it "momentarily stumbles upon the truth" as Pursah once put it.

From the Course:

• If you want to be like me I will help you, knowing that we are alike.  If you want to be different, I will wait until you change your mind.  I can teach you, but only you can choose to listen to my teaching.
• There is nothing about me that you cannot attain.  I have nothing that does not come from God.  The difference between us now is that I have nothing else.  This leaves me in a state which is only potential in you.

From The Bible

• In the Bible Jesus is quoted as saying, "In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  Pursah rhetorically asks in The Disappearance of the Universe, "If he wasn’t a man who had lessons to learn like you, then why would he have to overcome the world in the first place?"
• "....Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do."

From The Disappearance of the Universe
  The message of the crucifixion has been interpreted by the world as a message of sacrifice.  That is not the lesson J intended it to be.  His lesson was one of resurrection rather than crucifixion.  J says there is no death, and that the body is nothing.  The church has confused the manner of his death as a call to sacrifice and suffer for God.  That is incorrect.

  It is not necessary for you to repeat the example of the crucifixion.  As J tells you in the Course, "You are not asked to be crucified, which was part of my own teaching contribution.  You are merely asked to follow my example in the face of much less extreme temptations to misperceive, and not to accept them as false justifications for anger."  Remembering that, all you need to do is understand the real lesson of it and apply it, through your forgiveness attitude, to your own body and your own personal life’s circumstances.  Here is part of what J says in the Course in the section titled The Message of the Crucifixion.  You will never find a more striking example of refusing to compromise on the truth.

"Assault can ultimately be made only on the body.  There is little doubt that one body can assault another, and can even destroy it.  Yet if destruction itself is impossible, anything that is destructible cannot be real.  Its destruction, therefore, does not justify anger.  To the extent to which you believe that it does, you are accepting false premises and teaching them to others.  The message the crucifixion was intended to teach was that it is not necessary to perceive any form of assault in persecution, because you cannot be persecuted.  If you respond with anger, you must be equating yourself with the destructible, and are therefore regarding yourself insanely."

He then goes on to say in that same section, "The message of the crucifixion is perfectly clear: Teach only love, for that is what you are.  If you interpret the crucifixion in any other way, you are using it as a weapon for assault rather than as the call for peace for which it was intended."

Mikey's Note: Just remember that J is not calling for martyrs but for teachers.  Like Pursah famously puts in Gary's 2nd book, Your Immortal Reality, "Remember, the Course is done at the level of the mind.  If you’re a woman and a man is trying to rape you, kick him in the balls."  You can forgive it later.   

Another excerpt from Disappearance
The law of forgiveness is this, "Fear binds the world, forgiveness sets it free."  The world feels solid to you because fear binds it.  It didn't feel solid to J because he had forgiven the world.  That's why the nails didn't hurt him as they were being driven into his flesh.  Being guiltless, his mind could not suffer – and someday you will attain the condition where you cannot suffer.  That is the destiny the Holy Spirit holds out to you when you forgive the episodic fantasies of your bodily addicted ego.

And to close this puppy out with a funny from Disappearance:
Arten: People have a lot of assumptions, but J didn’t come to the world in order to start some religion so people could make other people wrong for having bodies and wanting to use them.  He taught forgiveness, and still does, in order to teach people the total insignificance of the body.
Gary: So I can live and forgive simultaneously – and it’s possible to have both an erection and a resurrection.
Arten: That’s true – just not at the same time!

Giddy up!

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What is True Forgiveness? (Article Version)
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Fringe Benefits of Doing the Course

Excerpt from Gary Renard's Your Immortal Reality on the fringe benefits of practicing the Course's thought system
Gary: Okay, I have a question. Every now and then I read about one of these Nazis who escape to South America, and there will be a report that the guy died and he was like in his 80s or 90s or something. Now I’ve been told for the last 25 years that my thinking determines my health. So how come these jerks get to live to be a hundred? I mean, what kind of thoughts, must they have been having most of their lives?
Arten: Get a grip, Gary. Your thoughts determine your experience of life, not what happens in your life. What happens on the level of form – how long you live, how rich or poor you are, whether or not you’re faced with the challenge of heart disease, stroke, cancer, or what have you – was all determined before you ever appeared to be born. The instant you chose the ego on that metaphysical level, everything else was a done deal. That’s why life here isn’t fair. And don’t ask why you should even bother! I just said you do determine your experience with your thoughts, and your experience is what’s important.
The only real power you have here is the power to choose between the ego and the Holy Spirit. In the process, if you happen to change dimensions of time through the Holy Spirit’s collapsing of time and thus have a different scenario play itself out within the fixed script, then you should consider that to be a fringe benefit. That’s not what the Course is about, though.
As for the collapsing of time, remember that only the Holy Spirit knows what’s best for everyone. Put Him in charge of time and space. Put the one in charge who knows everything. If you’re sick and your symptoms change through choosing forgiveness, then consider that to be a fringe benefit, also. The real goal is Heaven, but the short-term goal is peace, and the end of all pain and suffering. It’s absolutely within your means to learn to end all pain and suffering, despite anything that appears to be happening in the world and regardless of what your symptoms appear to be. That’s the Holy Spirit’s answer to the ego’s script of guilt, pain, suffering, and death.
Gary: So that Nazi would have lived to be 90, anyway, but the quality of his life and how he experiences those 90 years is determined by his thoughts, and that also goes for his spiritual progress and how many more lifetimes he has to come back for.
Arten: Exactly. Excellent.
Mikey’s Note: Yes, the whole point of doing the Course is to be at peace regardless of what goes in on in the world and your own personal life’s circumstances. Simple, but of course it’s not always easy, especially when the right person comes along or situation arises that pushes your buttons in some way. Of course, that's another opportunity to remember to apply forgiveness, and thus remove another layer of the ego, the false you. Then we can get to the point where it doesn't matter if these people or situations present themselves, we can laugh at it all instead.
Also as a fringe benefit of practicing the Course's thought system, we may receive inspired guidance to make a change or changes so that we are no longer presented with particular forgiveness opportunities because we healed that particular aspect of our unconscious that was reflected in those opportunities. It's perfectly all right to want to make changes in our lives, even though that is not the main purpose of doing the Course. The key is to remember to not put "the cart in front of the horse" which means we focus on working at the level of cause and not effect. When you take care of the cause, on the level of the unconscious, the effect takes care of itself, or at the very least we experience it differently. And as J says in the Course, "This a course in cause and not effect."
Then once we have forgiven everything, then we are free of the chains that bind us and we go Home, back to Reality, which is described by Pursah as being like, "...a perfect, indescribable ecstasy that never ceases; the very peak of a perfect sexual orgasm, except this orgasm never stops. It keeps going on forever with no decrease in its powerful and flawless intensity." I'm down - Giddy up!
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Join the Dude, Where's My Jesus Fish? page where I post a Quote of the Day from The Disappearance of the Universe, Your Immortal Reality, and A Course in Miracles: Facebook.com/DWMJF
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What is True Forgiveness? (Article Version)
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The Gary Renard Facebook Fan Page: Facebook.com/GaryRRenard
The Disappearance of the Universe TV Series Facebook Fan Page: Facebook.com/DOTUtv
Gary Renard's website: GaryRenard.com
Gary Renard's free podcast with Gene Bogart: Forgiveness.TV

There are No Victims in this World!

You are responsible for the world you see and not a victim of it.
~ The Disappearance of the Universe

A Course in Miracles Workbook Lessons:

Lesson 31 I am not the victim of the world I see.

Lesson 32 I have invented the world I see.

Lesson 33 There is another way of looking at the world.

Lesson 34 I could see peace instead of this.

A Course in Miracles: The secret of salvation is but this: that you are doing this unto yourself. No matter what the form of the attack, this still is true. Whoever takes the role of enemy and of attacker, still is this the truth. Whatever seems to be the cause of any pain and suffering you feel, this is still true. For you would not react at all to figures in a dream you knew that you were dreaming. Let them be as hateful and as vicious as they may, they could have no effect on you unless you failed to recognize it is your dream.

Mikey's Note: So, it doesn't matter if someone cuts you off in traffic, says something unkind to you, or some nut job burns down your house or murders your family, or if you feel like the government and the billion dollar corporations are screwing you - you made it up! As the Course says, "Beware of the temptation to perceive yourself unfairly treated."

Now, I'm not suggesting that it's easy to take full responsibility for our experiences, and I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the way for everyone - it's not everyone's time to be doing this. Even amongst students of the Course very few are ready to rise to that challenge that they invented the world they see, that the world is coming from them and not at them, and that they are fully responsible for their experiences. As Pursah rhetorically asks in Disappearance, "J chooses everyone, all the time. But how many are ready to listen?"

And yes action on the level of form is sometimes appropriate, and doesn’t mean we abandon common sense and common courtesy while we appear to be here. But the Course is about addressing the cause of all this psychosis, which is in the mind, instead of messing around with the effects seen out in the world. Anyway, just reminders for those who are ready to rise to the challenge.

I certainly need the reminders myself as I still got a few buttons left that can be pushed and several "slow burns" to get through, but I recognize that it's my own crap being shown symbolically outside myself, and that the only meaningful way of dealing with it is to own it, then undo it via the true forgiveness process instead of being in denial and projecting it, which is what most of the world does because they don’t know any better, and they just think they're right. Damn, that was a long-ass sentence.

The Disappearance of the Universe: With salvation there is no one out there to blame for your one real problem, of which all the others are symbolic. The cause, which is the decision to believe in the separation from God, and the solution, which is the principle of the Atonement, are both in your mind - where you now have the power to choose the Holy Spirit's Answer.

The Disappearance of the Universe: Remember this: Since it was your decision to side with the ego and make the separation real it means, once again, that this script is an example of self predetermination that was agreed to by you on a different level, not a case of you being a victim. Now you have the Course to teach you how to change your mind about the whole thing.

Mikey's Note: So occupy forgiveness, real forgiveness, because it's the only thing that works in a permanent way, the only way to really be free. As the Course puts it, "The power of decision is your one remaining freedom as a prisoner of this world. You can decide to see it right." And, "Therefore, seek not to change the world, but choose to change your mind about the world." So remember when someone “poops in your Fruit Loops” that you have the choice to take responsibility for your dream and remove another layer of your own ego, or make it psychologically real in your mind, be a victim, and remain a captive on “psycho planet.” Giddy up!

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Explaining the True Forgiveness Process of ACIM to a non-ACIMer

So what we refer to as life here on earth is really like a dream. And not only is it a dream, but it is ultimately an insignificant dream. The metaphor that Gary uses quite a bit is that when we go to bed at night, we have these dreams; some dreams are pleasant, and others not so pleasant. But neither one is true because it's only a dream. Then when we wake up in the morning, we realize that we never left the bed, and that what we were seeing during the night was not true. And that's what our everyday life is really like. We are all really home with God, dreaming that we are separate from God, but it's not true. Yes, our experience is that we are here, but it's a false experience. (Gary's teachers give a great metaphorical story of how we appeared to arrive here in the dream in the first place, but it's too lengthy to get into here. You can find it in chapter 4 of The Disappearance of the Universe.)

Part of the introduction to A Course in Miracles it says, "The course does not aim at teaching the meaning of love, for that is beyond what can be taught. It does aim, however, at removing the blocks to the awareness of love's presence, which is your natural inheritance." So, we all have these blocks (aka unconscious guilt) otherwise we wouldn't appear to be here, and experiencing separation from God. But these blocks to the awareness of Love's presence, or God, are unconscious, so we are not consciously aware of them. However, these blocks show up to us symbolically in the form of anything that triggers fear or some sort of negative emotion within us. Doesn’t matter what it is, all negative emotions are rooted in fear which is the effect of the unconscious guilt buried in the mind over the seeming separation from God: anger, hatred, annoyance, depression, jealousy, feelings of inferiority or superiority, arrogance, guilt, anxiety, feeling scared, needing to be right, lack of self-confidence, or even just feeling bored or unfulfilled, and what have you are all symbols of these blocks to the awareness of Love’s presence. And the acting out of these blocks is what’s responsible for the all craziness that takes place here on “psycho planet!”

So, as a student of the Course, your job is to become more observant of, and identify these negative emotions instead of continuing to gloss them over and be in denial of them which is what most of the people of the world do; I know, I used to be one of them. As the Course teaches, "No one can escape from illusions unless he looks at them, for not looking is the way they are protected." And I should also note that it doesn’t matter if the negative emotion is the result of being right about something on the level of form and being accurate about the details of your grievances; being right does not bring anybody any lasting peace, only instant gratification at best, while keeping the conflict in the mind unresolved. As the Course says, “Do you prefer you be right or happy?”

The Course also teaches that there are no victims in this world! So once you really understand that the world is coming from you and not at you and that you made up what you are perceiving - albeit on an unconscious level - and that God has nothing to do with this world whatsoever, then you realize that anger is never justified. Doesn’t matter what it is, whether it’s someone cutting you off in traffic or you feel that the government is screwing you in some way, or even if we are talking about the murder of a loved one - you made them up! Now I’m certainly not suggesting that this is always easy to accept, and that appropriate action isn’t sometimes necessary, but it is definitely the truth!

So, when you experience a negative emotion, the first step is to remember that you are dreaming, and that you are really home safe with God. What you are seeing is not true! So for example, say someone is saying something unkind to you and it triggers a negative feeling within you, instead of reacting, your job is to remember that the person being unkind to you is just representing a symbolic aspect of your own unconscious mind that needs healing. At that point, your next step is to change your mind about it. Instead of seeing the other person as an insensitive jerk, we see them as they really are: innocent. They're innocent because they haven't really done anything; it's just a dream. As the Course teaches, "Forgiveness recognizes what you thought your brother did to you has not occurred. It does not pardon sins and make them real. It sees there was no sin. And in that view are all your sins forgiven." So that's the attitude you want to have when presented with a forgiveness opportunity. If you see the other as innocent, then that's how it will register in your unconscious mind about yourself. As the Course teaches, "As you see him, you will see yourself."

Once you take responsibility for your dream instead of being a victim of it, then you have to trust J or the Holy Spirit (whatever you think of it as) to do His job of removing more unconscious guilt (blocks) from the mind as you continue to practice this form of forgiveness. I say you have to trust because the inner peace that is a result of practicing this form of forgiveness doesn't always show up right away. From my experience, sometimes it shows up right away, but sometimes it doesn’t, particular with "slow burn" forgiveness lessons (people or situations that you have to forgive over and over again.) Sometimes this inner peace will just show up from out of nowhere it seems, where I feel totally peaceful for no apparent reason. Another sign that one is making progress with this forgiveness process is that you'll find yourself being able to shrug or laugh at things that in the past would have pissed you off or upset you in some way.

As a fringe benefit of practicing this form of forgiveness, we may sometimes receive inspired guidance as to what to say or do about a particular situation. For me personally, most of the time there is nothing to say or do on the level of the world in association with my forgiveness opportunities, but there have been other times when I felt guided to speak up about something or even make a major life change. The great thing about the Course is that it isn’t about how you behave or what you do in the world (that’s for religions;) it’s about how you look at the world and the people in the world. So you still live a relatively normal, earthly life. Although as Gary points out, some people get into all this and forget how to carry on a normal conversation. Gary says, “Don’t be weird!”

The ironic thing about this spiritual path is that even though it is geared toward returning our awareness to Oneness and the end of separation, on the level of the world, however, we may be guided to separate from certain people or circumstances because the particular forgiveness lessons associated with them have been learned, and then it's time to move on to our next opportunities and adventures. So, sometimes the guidance we receive can show up in the form of life changing events such as feeling inspired to leave your job, move to another town, separate from your spouse, etc. Forgiveness doesn’t mean you have to hang out with those you are forgiving.

Another thing I should add too is that we can still enjoy the things of this world that we enjoy even though it's just a dream. It's just a matter of not making a false idol out of these things; not looking for our peace and happiness outside ourselves from material things and other people. Otherwise, we are psychological attached to it, and losing it will eventually play itself out. So, this forgiveness work is geared toward being able to be happy and at peace regardless of what happens in the world and in our own personal life's circumstances. A simple path yes, but certainly not an easy one. Most of the time J says in the Course that it takes a little willingness, but in the Manual for Teachers section of the Course he says that it takes abundant willingness. So, it's got to be something that you really want, which is why it’s not for everyone, or at least not for everyone all at once. It's not something we can do haphazardly and expect to achieve the goal of the Course.

So, at this point I would refer people to The Disappearance of the Universe and Your Immortal Reality by Gary Renard, and from there they can decide if they want to do the Workbook of the Course to further reinforce the way we need to look at this world in order to attain the lofty goal the Course has to offer. The short term goal is inner peace, but the ultimate goal of the Course is to have the permanent experience of what we really are and where really are; the equivalent of being free and going Home, which has been described as a perfect, indescribable ecstasy that never ceases. Until then, one will remain stuck in the cycle of birth and death. Giddy up!

Healing the Sick: It's not about the Patient

Excerpt from The Disappearance of the Universe, Healing the Sick chapter

- Sickness is of the mind and has nothing to do with the body.

- Sickness has nothing to do with God.

- Only true forgiveness can remove unconscious guilt from the mind.

Pursah: ...Your life is self-determined. Sickness isn't personal. You may find that hard to believe, but sickness is not made by you at this level. That's just another reason why no one should feel bad about it if they get sick. You don't choose cancer on this level any more than a baby chose to be deformed on this level. Illness was made by your mind at a larger level, and is being acted out here in a predetermined way. You can get in touch with your power to choose and thus have an enormous influence on whether or not you feel pain, and sometimes lessen or eliminate your physical symptoms.

I say sometimes because unless you're a master then you won't always be successful, and if you are successful it doesn't necessarily make you a master. Besides, it's the changing of your mind and its result on the way you feel that's the most important thing.

Arten: Remember, we're talking about levels here. We're not saying you're not responsible for your experience or that you didn't choose the script on another level. We're saying you've got to get in touch with your power to choose from where you presently think you are. That's also true when you're healing "others." You never join with their bodies, and you never ask the Holy Spirit to heal the body. The body, sick or well, is just a dream. As the Course teaches you in regards to all aspects of joining with the dreamer of that dream:

...Choose once again what you would have him be, remembering that every choice you make establishes your own identity as you will see it and believe it is.

Now I'm going to give you the number one rule of all time when it comes to spiritual healing:

It's not about the patient.

All healing is a result of some kind of forgiveness, and all forgiveness leads to self-healing.

Gary: ****So even when it comes to healing the sick it's really about forgiving my own dream, and forgiving myself for dreaming it.*****

Arten: Yes. As the Psychotherapy pamphlet puts it while talking about how the Course looks at healing in psychotherapy:

...The process that takes place in this relationship is actually one in which the therapist in his heart tells the patient that all his sins have been forgiven him, along with his own. What could be the difference between healing and forgiveness?

Gary: Okay. So when J told that paralyzed man in the Book of Mark, "Your sins are forgiven you," and the guy got up and walked, J was demonstrating that healing and forgiveness are the same. Of course people freaked out and took it to be J doing something that only God was supposed to be able to do, namely forgiving someone his sins. They missed the point.

Arten: Very good.

Gary: So I should see another person's illness as my own call for help?

Arten: Yes. You have a chance to be healed in your mind by forgiving that person.

Gary: It seems a little selfish to use another person's difficulties as my way to get home.

Arten: It may seem selfish, but it's actually selfless.

Gary: How do you mean that?

Arten: Ultimately, forgiveness is saying that neither you nor the person who appears to be sick really exists separately from God. Thus are you both free. Furthermore, it's the only way for you to be free! It's all right to want freedom, and the way out is to see both of you as guiltless.

Gary: You could say that a great spiritual healer, like Joel Goldsmith for example, must have gotten in touch with the idea that people think they're guilty or unworthy in some way, and that the way to healing is through forgiveness.

Arten: Yes. All spiritual healers may not articulate it the same way, but the holiness that comes from unconditional love and forgiveness is essential. In some cases it triggers something in the unconscious mind of the patient - a recognition that they're really innocent and forgiven by God. Of course the mind of the healer is being healed simultaneously because there is really only one mind. There is no patient. Not really. The dream is not being dreamed by someone else, remember?

Gary: Oh, yeah.

Arten: By the way, J really did heal that man as described in Mark. After he said, "Your sins are forgiven," he also said, "that you may know the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins." He didn't just mean that he had that authority, he meant that you also have that authority. Do you not appear to be a Son of man on this level? Yet you are really Christ.

Of course there really isn't any such thing as sin, and J did not pardon sins to make them real. His attitude was that everyone in the dream is equally innocent because it's just a dream.

Sooner or later, it always comes down to some kind of forgiveness and how willing you are to do it. How willing are you to accept that it's all your dream? How willing are you to release your dream and choose God? You know J plays a little trick on you in the Course. Most of the time he says it takes a little willingness. But that's not for advanced students. In the Manual for Teachers, he says it takes abundant willingness.

Gary: The old bait and switch, huh?

Arten: Whatever it takes to get a lazy guy like you moving. Just kidding.

- You are Christ. Pure and Innocent. We are forgiven now.

What is True Forgiveness? (Article Version)

What is True Forgiveness? (You Tube version)

Mikey's website: www.giddyupmikey.com

Gary's website: www.garyrenard.com

Gary Renard podcast with Gene Bogart: www.forgiveness.tv